[amf78]

All,

Nearly a year ago I finally tested PA32UC but I would like to mention this now for context. Coming from a 16 dimming zones VA panel, I was taken aback by the 384 dimming zones FALD IPS panel, but not in a good way. While the corner flashlight artifacts were gone, the halos around bright objects were equally annoying if not worse. It was never clear to me whether this is to be expected or I got a particularly bad specimen (the ASUS customer response was slow enough, forcing me to return it in order not to miss the 30 day return window).

Fast forward 11 months, I finally gave up on waiting for the Holy Grail at an affordable price, and gave in to a HDR TV namely Samsung QE43QN. I realize there are already TV dedicated websites out there, but I just wanted to illustrate a point. Even though the number of dimming zones is lower (360 as far as I could determine), the halos are much less obvious than the 384 FALD IPS panel counterpart. It won’t display a starry sky without raising the black levels somewhat (but I doubt any displays on the market would, except OLED which are cost prohibitive and don’t get very bright), but it does display sparser (and larger) bright objects against a dark background very impressively (e.g. a candle flame, light beam, thunderbolts). Not sure if this is related to the different implementation (miniLED vs FALD) or rather the panel type (VA vs IPS). If I’m not mistaken VA panels generally have static contrast ratios 3-4 times higher than IPS panels, so is it reasonable to assume that even if a dimming zone adjacent to a bright object inadvertently lights up, the blacks will still be 3-4 times dimmer in the case of a VA panel compared to an IPS, everything else being equal?

In any case, it brings up an interesting question: where there are so few monitors with FALD/miniLED and VA panels? With the exception of two 35″ 1440p examples, everything else I’m aware of is in TV territory (size wise) with even fewer dimming zones that QE43QN. I understand there are some drawbacks (BGR pixel layout, color reproduction) but the image quality gap between IPS and VA seems to be narrowing, and in any case it should be better than TN panels which were ubiquitous a decade ago…

[PCM2]

Static contrast certainly is still important, because the darker content covering a brightly lit dimming zone (or in some cases adjacent to it) has raised black depth. And if it’s it’s near the edge of the screen, can recruit ‘IPS glow’ as well. The PA32UC is not a very good example of effective FALD on an IPS panel, however. Not only because of the relatively limited number of dimming zones (especially for the screen size), but because the algorithm controlling them is not tuned all that well. It tends to pulse the zones to very high levels even for mixed content, whilst they’re relatively slow to react to significant brightness changes between scenes. This is more of an issue under HDR or if you set the brightness high under SDR.

There are some VA panels with local dimming on the way from panel manufacturer CSOT, who largely took over LCD production when Samsung called it quits on that. Refer to the thread I linked to in my previous post. They’re starting with UltraWides and also the Samsung Odyssey G8 which is a ~32″ ‘4K’ offering. I’d expect that to filter down to other sizes and resolutions as well. There’s still a definite gap between VA and IPS models when it comes to things like gamma and colour consistency and the colour gamut supported in most cases – VA is still distinctly behind IPS in these areas. Consistently strong pixel responses are also an issue for VA technologies as is image stability (lack of flickering) in a VRR environment. And other issues related to subpixel structure and ‘interlace pattern artifacts’ (mainly at higher refresh rates) are also common issues. But of course they do offer excellent contrast and are nice candidates for effective local dimming, so I hope to see more choice in Mini LED VA flavour. 🙂

[amf78]

With regards to VA vs IPS image quality, I guess I didn’t pay attention to all relevant criteria so I stand corrected 🙂

It’s interesting you mention the pulsing of dimming zones to very high levels in the case of PA32UC, because that’s another aspect that distinguishes it from the QE43QN which I forgot to mention in my previous message. In case of the latter, it seems there’s at least on intermediate level between OFF and FULL ON, which helps as you say especially with mixed content. I agree about the relevance of PA32UC in 2022, but it’s the only other FALD display I’ve tried.
All in all, I was intrigued by how the panel type (and perhaps dimming algorithm) can compensate for the lower number of dimming zones.

I won’t upgrade anytime soon, but it would be interesting to hear reports about +2000 dimming zone IPS panels. So far, even 500 and 1000 get slammed occasionally for too much haloing.

[M2077]

Hey again!

Curious if someone heard anything about the AOC AG274QXM or if anyone has some experience with it? 27″, 1440p, 170Hz, and MiniLED with 576 zones.

The only reviews I found about it was quite unfavorable — pretty low contrast ratio (800:1), and FALD being locked to HDR mode only, as well as other issues. But maybe some of these were fixed with a firmware update or so? It’s currently available in my country for a really low price (~ $550, which is not low for a monitor but is basically unheard of for MiniLED / FALD panels. Also, things are usually more expensive here than the west) which makes me suspicious of its performance.

The reviews I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdXST7NgtsY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FSfl-p1Jys

[PCM2]

Chris Minasians (TotallydubbedHD) is actually a friend of mine with a lot of monitor testing experience under his belt. I’ve had various conversations with him about his experiences with the AOC AG274QXM. I’ve also discussed this with some technically-minded contacts of mine. It’s basically a very poor Mini LED implementation, which uses a TPV CELL with pretty rudimentary backlight control that really isn’t fit for purpose. Just shoving lots of LEDs into the backlight doesn’t really do a lot if they aren’t properly controlled, without appropriate algorithm tuning. In that respect this model falls completely flat, which is why you tend to find Mini LED solutions reserved for higher priced models. They require specialised scalers and careful tuning, such as what Nvidia would provide with some of their G-SYNC Ultimate solutions (AG274QGM would qualify here, but not the QXM). And indeed a few ‘premium priced’ upcoming (non-GSYNC module) models which I’ve mentioned earlier on this thread, such as the Acer X32 FP. The low price of the AOC really is ‘too good to be true’ and it isn’t a monitor I’d ever recommend – even if just to satisfy your curiosity, you’ll likely end up feeling hard done by and returning it. I couldn’t even bring myself to write a news piece on it and promote it in any way, to be completely honest. 🙂

[EsaT]

That 800:1 sounds like LG’s 15 years old tech contrast Nano-IPS panel.
Maybe it’s that obviously cheap LCD panel combined with some cheapest FALD backlight.
Size and resolution would be fit.

Guess that product name Agon is typo missing one letter…

[M2077]

Ah, I see.. that’s sad to hear. Thanks a lot for your response!

I am curious though — do you think MiniLED would ever be mainstream, or at least upper mid-range? I noticed that dimming solutions in general seem to be a bit of an issue with various models. For instance, the PG32UQX was delayed quite a bit, the Samsung Neo G9 leaves plenty to be desired with regards to its FALD performance, and so on (not to mention the slower response time which seems to be related to local dimming? but I am not sure). As you say, they require specialised scalars and careful tuning and this leads to them being strictly high end… but could this change in the future? Or would it be more likely to see other solutions like QD-OLED beating them to the mainstream segment?

[PCM2]

I’d expect them to always fetch a bit of a premium so not become truly mainstream, but I think upper mid-range is achievable. I know panel manufacturer AUO is working very hard on integrating their own solutions (including properly tuned scaling hardware) into products like the X32 FP (and X27 S) and I’d definitely expect that to filter down to more affordable monitors in time. Shedding the G-SYNC module certainly helps and once production of Mini LED panels scales up properly this should drive down prices further, whilst product range expands.

[amf78]

If I may add, the obstacle is not only the number of dimming zones (and proper controlling algorithm without which the whole exercise of adding more mini LEDs becomes meaningless) but also the tight color accuracy demands the manufacturers place on these units. Delta Es of less than 2 are so yesterday already, suddenly <1 is the new norm, even though according to RTINGS at least, deltaE<3 is only noticeable to colorimeters and specialists, not the general public or even enthusiasts. This is a bit puzzling, but I guess they want to target content creators as well, the prevailing thought being that monitors should be just for content creation and TVs for content consumption. Even then, as a hobby/enthusiast photographer I rarely if ever found myself concerned with perfect color reproduction, and I imagine gamers and other users could care even less. And speaking of gamers, I guess the demand for refresh rates of 120 Hz or higher doesn’t help price wise either. To sum it up, you’re not buying just a HDR capable display, you’re buying a HDR capable display with color accuracy and refresh rates that challenge human vision, whether you need that or not. And herein lies the cost problem…
And I haven’t even mentioned production related issues or number of units being produced.

[PCM2]

With the focus on HDR performance accuracy within the sRGB colour space is not of particular importance, given you’re aiming for good DCI-P3 coverage at a minimum and strong Rec. 2020 coverage as a longer-term goal. Your point regarding cost is certainly valid if you consider the backlight technology required to achieve excellent colour gamuts, however. And it’s certainly nice to have a well-calibrated sRGB emulation setting for SDR purposes, for those who like the toned down look of that colour space and want things to be represented accuracy there. And careful factory calibration of each individual unit does add some cost to the end product, but not a huge amount. And even fairly inexpensive panels can perform well there – it’s actually quite easy to get a fairly mediocre TN panel to satisfy the colorimeter for ‘colour accuracy’ within the sRGB colour space, though that doesn’t mean it will be satisfying to the eye. As long as gamma tracking, sRGB gamut coverage and white point is decent enough the colorimeter or spectrophotometer is generally going to be pretty happy.

This is why I spend so much time in my reviews talking about colour consistency and giving a subjective impression on the image which actual humans can relate to. And tying into that the impact of the screen surface and contrast (particularly important for HDR – precision of the luminance control, which has a significant impact on colour depth and ‘pop’ alongside gamut). I also like to reinforce the idea of colour accuracy in a unique way, using visual representations and the SpyderCHECKR 24 system. A lot of effort goes into this part of the reviews, but I’ve received a lot of positive feedback that this helps people truly appreciate how inaccuracies can present themselves from an untamed wide gamut or even other inaccuracies in calibration (including with sRGB emulation modes). It won’t just tell you if a certain shade is deemed ‘accurate’ or not according to a colorimeter looking at the shade in the centre of the screen from point blank. It also allows qualitative assessment of why it’s inaccurate and how colour consistency comes into play.

[amf78]

You bring up excellent points.
As a side question, it’s still not clear to me how gamut, color depth and dynamic range are supposed to work together seamlessly, in Windows at least.
When using the default SDR mode the monitor/TV is “seen” as a 8-bit display (only) by the OS. Does that then mean that the additional color depth can only be tapped into in HDR mode, and does that apply to the color space/gamut as well (i.e. restricted to sRGB in SDR)? I even tried playing with color profiles, installing a DCI-P3 profile for example, but there’s no apparent difference. Maybe I’m overlooking something here.

[PCM2]

Bit-depth and gamut are separate things (reference). Most SDR content is 8-bit, HDR10 content is always 10-bit and that’s where the name derives. On most modern monitors with HDR support, the scaler will allow 10-bit (8-bit plus a dithering stage) to be selected under SDR as a graphics driver option. If that isn’t supported, perhaps for bandwidth reasons or simply because of the scaler used, 10-bit still needs to be used for HDR but that involves a dithering stage offloaded to the GPU. None of this affects the gamut itself, but precise mapping onto a wide gamut certainly benefits from the extra precision of a high bit depth (10-bit+). Simply selecting ’10-bit’ in the graphics driver doesn’t help with that, though, it also requires a 10-bit workflow at the software level.

ICC profiles only apply gamut mapping corrections for colour-aware applications, you need to look into sRGB emulation for correct representation of sRGB content outside of such applications. This is all covered in our article on the topic, which I’d highly recommend reading if you’re interested in accurate output from wide gamut monitors outside of colour-aware applications.

[EsaT]

Segmented FALD backlight with per segment control circuitry and all processing needed for controlling it adds always complexity and hence cost over standard backlight.
And that difference to standard backlight is no doubt major with major increase in complexity.
Though production volumes certainly play part in that.
But anyway wouldn’t expect FALD to ever become mainstream.

Self emissive pixel tech like OLED are far more elegant with huge amount less complexity and far more likely to become mainstream priced when/if production picks up.
Just compare prices of say PG32UQX to LG’s OLED TVs.
Even if you half the price of Asus, it’s still more expensive for whole lot less of both size and image quality.

Unless you have like 100+k of backlight zones blooming will always be clear problem.
And at that stage that backlight is very complex and and needs really lots of processing to control it.
Also keeping manufacturing variation at bay becomes certainly lot harder with increasing complexity.

[sayhejcu]

I’m really happy with the Acer X27. I feel lucky to have this impressive monitor. Excited for the future of monitors. My only complaint would be the screen coating. Its clean but feels like there is a pretty thick glass in front of the actual panel.

After using X27 i would admire pg32uqx with its 32 inch size, lighter coating, 10 bit color depth and better zone per inch ratio but response times really disappointing.

I’m curious about gsync ultimate qd oled. Price seem fair. Not sure about the peak brightness though.

I’m interested in 32 inch 4k gsync ultimate format. I honestly want exact same monitor (x27) but with 32 inch and glossy coating.

[PCM2]

Some updates on some of the models discussed in this thread can be found here and here. To summarise:

– Dell Alienware AW3423DW is a good showcase of QD-OLED capability. I very much enjoyed (and still enjoy) its HDR performance, the per-pixel precision is very nice and its luminance performance and indeed colour gamut is impressive for OLED. But it isn’t perfect in that it doesn’t have the same sustained or bright-shade dominated luminance performance as some Mini LED solutions. And to perhaps nit-pick a bit, Rec. 2020 coverage is better in the green and cyan regions on some Mini LED solutions as well.

– Acer X32 FP feedback starting to surface (same or similar panel will be used on ASUS PG32UQXE, but that has a G-SYNC module). It appears to offer the sort of experience you’d expect given its 576 dimming zones and VESA DisplayHDR 1000 solution. The AUO ‘AmLED’ solution and whatever scaler is used here seems to be one of the better-tuned Mini LED solutions that doesn’t rely on a G-SYNC module.

– The Acer X27 S is most likely going to use the AUO M270QAN07.5 which should go into mass production Q4 2022. We can hope to see the monitor itself available in some capacity Q4 2022 but it’s possible it isn’t more widely available until Q1 2023. This is another ‘AmLED’ solution with AUO involved in the tuning of the backlight.

– The Cooler Master GP27-FUS has very similar specifications, but I believe it is based on an AUO CELL with custom backlight. So a slightly different solution to the Acer despite appearing very similar ‘on paper’ and not technically ‘AmLED’ with associated tuning. This was initially listed as available June 15th on Amazon.com, but after that date passed it just ‘disappeared’ and was not listed as in stock. Based on some pre-orders made via my website, I’m not confident any units were actually shipped on or around June 15th and that date was likely a ‘mistake’ of some sort.

– There’s also another interesting thread looking further into the future at technologies such as Micro LED and QDEL (or ‘pure Quantum Dot’) solutions.

[CrumpetS]

I’ve been keeping my eyes on your news and forum as it’s such an amazing soruce of information. Love all the personal touches and insights you give, your work really is unique. 😀

Currently a happy user of the ASUS PA278QV and have an eye on a possible upgrade. Not in a huge rush but I’m really eying an OLED for my upgrade as I want really good HDR. Personally I’m not too bothered about super high brightness, I want colours to look vibrant and accurate. I want strong contrast as well and would like something a bit bigger than my current screen. Would ideally like 75Hz+ but I can deal with 60Hz if the tradeoff is worth it for image quality. To me the ASUS PA32DC you recently did a news article looks ideal, except it’s way past my budget! Guess I will just have to wait until the technology filters out properly, I’m quite happy to use my current monitor for a while longer. I’m a patient guy.

[PCM2]

I appreciate the kind words! As it happens we may be reviewing the PA32DC shortly. I definitely hope we’ll see ‘cut down’ versions of that at some point in the not too distant future, given that JOLED is expanding capacity and will be creating panels destined for cheaper models. So if you’re interested in the PA32DC but don’t necessarily care for the extra features (likely tight calibration of multiple colour spaces, OSD functionality, programmable LUT, multiple HDR standards supported, multiple stand configurations, integrated colorimeter etc.) and just want similar contrast, responsiveness and colour characteristics plus HDR10 performance you may be in luck. Philips has released a 27″ model of this variety in some markets, the 27E1N8900. It sits a little over ~$1000, but currently release seems to have been limited and slow to propagate out of select Asian countries. There is a ~32″ variant of the panel planned a little further down the line.

So hopefully JOLED can get things sorted out for more mainstream manufacture and indeed I hope other developments such as QD OLED and the solutions discussed here expand into the mainstream market. I’d really like to see JOLED expand beyond 60Hz monitors (and include VRR support as well) as well as just provide cheaper alternatives to their current 60Hz panels. I don’t expect any of this to happen in the very near future, but looking at the coming years I certainly think we can expect some exciting developments here. 🙂

[CrumpetS]

Yeah I’m happy to wait and see what comes up. I might even be swayed by one of the MiniLED options, just have a strange itch to try OLED.

[PCM2]

I certainly feel that the Sony INZONE M9 (SDM-U27M90) is worth mentioning in this thread as an interesting intermediate between Mini LED solutions and the much more limited HDR performance you can expect from an edge-lit panel. Both in terms of price and potential contrast and HDR performance. The video below from Hardware Unboxed (their sub-channel Monitors Unboxed) shows some nice examples which illustrate these differences. The zones on the Sony appear to react rapidly, whilst the larger zones naturally invite somewhat gentler luminance changes where very bright and much darker shades intertwine. This number of zones is certainly sufficient to provide a significant edge in HDR performance compared to edge-lit.

[PCM2]

For HDR lovers on a budget, the Acer Nitro XV275U P3 is certainly one to keep an eye on.

[Author]

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