New Monitor Panel Discussions

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This topic contains 234 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Umbral 1 week ago.

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  • October 14, 2014 at 1:07 pm #33205

    Umbral
    Participant

    Since many people have a wishlist / speculation about new panels that are coming in the future or questions about current panels i think a topic like this could be nice.

    For example.

    I am interested in the new AOU / BenQ M270HVN02.3 panel – planned for October production (27″ panel with 1920 x 1080 resolution and 3000:1 contrast ratio). Higher resolution screens do put a huge burden on the GPU as seen below.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-nvidia-geforce-gtx-980-review
    GTX 980 in Metro: Last Light, Very High, SSAA got :

    52.0 fps (1080p)
    32.6fps (1440p)
    Unplayable at max settings in 4k.

    Also the 34″ 21:9 screens have the same height as a 27″ 16:9. Of course 16:10 1200p screens are nice but none exist in 27″.

    Anyway here is my wishlist / speculation about M270HVN02.3 panel:

    – more domains (better viewing angles and less shifts).
    – under 5mm bezel or bezel-less.
    – wide gamut (quantum dot) or GB-Led, rec. 2020 color space.
    – better overdrive / response time.
    – very good brightness, color, contrast, gamma uniformity.
    – factory calibrated.

    That’s all i wish.

    October 14, 2014 at 6:00 pm #33208

    PCM2
    Keymaster

    Hi Umbral,

    Yeah I think this thread is a nice idea. And I agree that it’s important to look beyond 4K, particularly for consumers who are looking for an economical solution. I think there is a lot of enjoyment to be had from the UHD resolution but I also think it is something that will get much better in time, especially as GPU horsepower increases and scaling issues are ironed out. I’m personally quite looking forward to a number of upcoming 4K panels, especially AUO’s 27″ (M270QAN variants) and 32″ models (M270QAN variants) which should be interesting for price-performance. Dell’s glossy ‘5K’ (so-called) UP2715K also has me interested as do Philips upcoming 32″ and 40″ models (further details still to come).

    Having seen them demonstrated at IFA, I’m also looking forward to testing some curved UltraWide monitors. Philips and AOC apparently have some things in the works for next year. There’s also the Samsung S34E790C which will be using a nice high-contrast VA panel. I didn’t find the demonstration images showed off the technology very well at IFA, but even so I saw a lot of potential in that monitor.

    I also know that a lot of people will be eagerly anticipating the 144Hz AU Optronics AHVA panel (M270DAN02.3), but there are many questions remaining unanswered about the performance of that one.

    And finally, I’m with you on looking forward to more affordable and ‘simple’ models which may still be ‘just’ 1920 x 1080 but offer great advancement for price-performance in other areas. The M270HVN02.3 is definitely interesting and I would definitely like to see some of the things you list being implemented. I also can’t wait for enough wide gamut models to be available so that content creators are comfortable to finally free themselves from the shackles of sRGB. I’m quite interested in the BenQ EZ2450L as a possible demonstration of affordable wide gamut if nothing else.

    October 14, 2014 at 7:37 pm #33211

    Lance
    Participant

    I am interested in the new 1920×1080 VA from BenQ as well, quite curious to see how they could make it better than their current AMVA+.

    I have to say I too still find the 1080p and 1200p monitors more attractive than the 1440p, because of the lower processing power requirements, but more importantly because of their extremely low lag figures.
    I have been dreaming of a well-responsive, low-glow, 27″/32″ 1440p IPS monitor, with the same super low lag, but I think it will never happen.

    Fingers crossed for that AUO 144Hz IPS, hope BenQ will understand that lag matters too.

    Still on the topic of lag and regarding 4K resolution, one positive thing I believe is that it’s possible to get decent and almost instant scaling for something like 1080p on it. Check the review of the DVDO iScan Mini to see what I mean: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ (scroll down almost to the bottom)

    October 14, 2014 at 8:35 pm #33212

    PCM2
    Keymaster

    I’ve scanned through that and also the official product brief of the DVDO iScan Mini and I’m still not clear what exactly it does. I understand its upscaling functionality (‘fake 4K’ if you like) but are you suggesting it can also ‘downscale’ a UHD signal into Full HD? Big limitation I see with that, for monitors, is that there is no DP on that thing – and that’s something monitors are and will be using for their full ‘4K’ capabilities for a little while yet.

    And call me old fashioned, but no matter how fancy your processing/upscaling/downscaling is, it never beats the native resolution on a display of equivalent size and quality. Although in this case the numbers divide nice and evenly, of course. I don’t think that will be necessary on UHD/4K displays if they handle the scaling ‘properly’ themselves. Obviously that isn’t the case with the current 28″ TN models like the U28D590D, for example.

    October 14, 2014 at 10:00 pm #33213

    Lance
    Participant

    Actually what I mean is as this little (and of course incomplete) DVDO device shows, there’s a natural interest from the AV specialists and manufacturers in upscaling to 4K the resolutions that are bound to become older/legacy (mainly 720p/1080i/1080p), which gives hope to people like me who need to adapt their source to higher resolutions, clean and without monstrous processing delay.

    I wasn’t able to find a 1440p monitor that does that for my 480p/720/1080p sources. The only ones with low lag are the questionable-quality single-input Korean monitors, but that’s because those completely lack a built-in upscaler. I would have bought one if there was an external upscaler supporting 1440p available, but there isn’t even one on the market, and there will never be.
    I can’t play my consoles or even use my current upscalers (limited to 1080p) on those.

    Don’t underestimate the importance of upscaling, ratio control and built-in upscalers as a whole, the reason why low-cost Korean monitors are so popular among PC gamers is almost exclusively because all mainstream brands made monitors with 20+ms delay and locked screen refresh.rates.
    It’s a very crucial part that’s much too often overlooked, or barely explored, by manufacturers and reviewers (sorry).

    I too prefer native resolution when possible of course, but not everyone uses a monitor exclusively for his PC with a single, fixed, native resolution. People also use game consoles, AV gear, BD players, etc.
    Not every built-in scaler behaves the same, nor provides the same scaling quality.
    At the moment I believe the only (affordable) 1440p with a real good interpolation quality is the AOC q2770pqu, I like everything about it except its much too high lag (for my use).
    So I was going to go with a 1200p like the BenQ BL2411PT, but found several comments of disappointed people confirming it can’t display 1080p sources with proper black borders.
    Etc, etc.

    In short when I mean there’s hope for 4K upscaling, I mean the 1440p ‘generation’ is considered a lost one for many people who aren’t just ‘PC-only’ users, and since 4K will undoubtedly be the next big mainstream resolution as 1080p was, it will naturally generate much more R&D and product creation = good.

    Upscaling may be off-topic here, but to me (and crowds of gamers and videophiles) even with the best panel ever a monitor is ruined if the built-in scaler/interface doesn’t meet my expectations:
    – picture quality (how well the scaling chip and its algorithms perform working with lower resolutions)
    – very fast processing (clearly under 1 frame / 16,66ms)
    – proper ratio support on all inputs (for 4:3, 16:9, 16:10 or more)
    So I’m still sticking to 1080p monitors because AFAIK not even one 1200p nor 1440p combines all those three qualities I need.

    PS: by the way > Sorry but no, I have no interest in downscaling ^^

    October 15, 2014 at 8:06 am #33218

    PCM2
    Keymaster

    Ah right, that makes more sense!

    I should point out a couple of things at this point. Firstly, I do agree that input lag is important and it would be very nice to see a wider array of 2560 x 1440 and higher resolution models with lower input lag. This is something we test and this is feedback we give to manufacturers. We are not able to specifically discuss ‘overclocking’ or refresh rate increases in reviews, because it isn’t something the manufacturers like being done to the products they kindly provide or encourage others to do too openly. We do test it and report capabilities elsewhere, though, as you can see in this thread (for example). We are sometimes contacted by users expressing an interest in the ‘overclockability’ of a model and we are able to help them one-to-one if required.

    Some really good thoughts there though. 🙂

    P.S. There is no such thing as ‘1200p’ or ‘1440p’. The ‘p’ is only used officially in TV lingo for resolutions such as 1080p and 2160p. 1920 x 1200 / 2560 x 1440 aren’t TV resolutions.

    October 15, 2014 at 12:40 pm #33220

    Lance
    Participant

    Well I’ve seen people omitting the H resolution and just stick a ‘p’ after the V resolution figure, and started doing the same because it’s quicker than writing down ‘1920 x 1200’. It’s pure lazyness. 😀

    Anyway back on topic I forgot to ask if you have heard/read about the A-TW polarizer LG were supposed to start applying to their displays quite a while ago ?
    Or anything similar from other manufacturers ?

    It seems the general opinion about IPS panels is that those are overall quite good for everything save for movies, and it’s just the ‘ips glow’ that ruins the experience.
    But I see no progress and really don’t understand the reason. (Seriously; why ?)
    If monitors like the Samsung S27D590P or the new Dell S2715H were ‘glow-free’ or something close, I would buy ten at once. :p

    October 15, 2014 at 10:29 pm #33221

    PCM2
    Keymaster

    I haven’t heard anything more about the 23.8″ IPS with ‘A-TW option’ since it was first reported on TFT Central. The original report was based on speculation rather than anything concrete. The only recent panel I know to use such technology is the Samsung LTM270DL06 (27″ WQHD PLS), but bizarrely the newer variant used on their S27D850T doesn’t seem to share that technology currently. A-TW and other glow reduction technologiesd are definitely something I hope to see more of in the near future.

    October 30, 2014 at 11:15 am #33265

    Umbral
    Participant

    LG Releases the 31MU97 ‘Digital Cinema 4K Monitor’ – https://pcmonitors.info/lg/lg-31mu97-digital-cinema-4k-model/

    new specialized monitor
    4096 x 2160
    DCI-P3 color space
    10-bit color

    October 30, 2014 at 1:24 pm #33266

    PCM2
    Keymaster

    There is already an article on that monitor on our website. We were in fact the first place to find out about this monitor and have the most complete information available on it. LG has even been giving our information out to retailers as their own website lacks a lot of key information. So I’ve adjusted that link for you.

    It is definitely a nice thing to see a push in the colour gamut and availability of ‘Cinema 4K’, although personally I feel UHD and its 16:9 is and will continue to be better supported due to it being the common TV standard.

    November 2, 2014 at 10:10 am #33272

    Umbral
    Participant

    Regarding these new panels as far as i understand the Leo Bodnar test cannot independently measure input lag. It can only measure input lag and response time together.

    So a TV with 14 ms (13.5 ms actually) should be considered a TV that has good pixel responsiveness and good input lag for both movies and games ?

    Class 1) Less than 16ms / 1 frame lag - should be fine for gamers, even at high level

    http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag

    Are the input lag and pixel responsiveness similar in the sense that their effects are cumulative (accumulate) and produce similar artifacts and slow downs ?

    Will a Monitor and a TV with under 16 ms Leo Bodnar behave similarly ?

    What is the relationship between 4 ms G2G / 12 ms ISO (black > white > black) and a value provided by the Leo Bodnar test ?

    For displays where overdrive is not used, manufacturers will generally quote the more traditional ISO 13406-2 response time which will represent a measurement for the pixels changing from black > white > black (0-255-0). This ISO response time is made up of the rise and fall time as the pixel changes from one state to the other and then back again. You will see specs quoted where the response time is listed on its own, without a "G2G" (grey to grey) after it. Typically there are limits for each panel technology of how far these ISO response times can be pushed. For a TN Film panel, the fastest ISO response time is usually quoted as 5ms. For VA matrices it is ~12ms and for IPS is is ~16ms. On these displays without overdrive the ISO 0-255-0 change is the fastest since the highest voltage is applied to re-orientate the pixels. Manufacturers quote this spec but you need to keep in mind that the other transitions (between different grey shades for example) will be higher and are not specified at all. In fact in normal use it would be quite rare to see a full black > white transition, and changes between different grey scales (i.e. between different colours) are far more common. Unfortunately the spec provided will not tell you how fast these are at all. Keep in mind therefore that the more important grey to grey transitions may be much slower than the quoted ISO response time, and so overall performance in practice may vary significantly. This is particularly noticeable when looking at VA or IPS panels without overdrive, where G2G transitions can be very slow. This ISO response time is only really quoted for screens without overdrive being used, and in today's market that is fairly rare really.

    November 2, 2014 at 11:22 am #33273

    PCM2
    Keymaster

    I have no personal experience with the Leo Bodnar test so can’t speak of its specific accuracy. And it would depend on the test methodology used. Two key points:

    1) Any assessment such as Leo Bodnar which relies on studying the visual output of the display can not determine the ‘signal delay’ alone. Yes, it is influenced by pixel response time. And that value varies depending on the transition – safely ignore specified values given by manufacturers. The value must be measured and known for the specific transition that the Leo Bodnar is looking at for figures to be anywhere near accurate.

    2) Signal delay is the element of input lag you feel and pixel responsiveness is the element you see. There is a fundamental difference between how these elements affect the experience. The delay before the mouse cursor starts to move (signal delay), for example, is very different to the delay before it is fully drawn into its next position (pixel response time). You can have a monitor with next to no signal delay and very slow pixel response times and it feels very different to a monitor with a long signal delay but snappy pixel response times. Even if the ‘input lag’ is technically the same.

    These concepts are covered in the ‘input lag’ section of our responsiveness article. The whole article is worth a read, though, especially if you’re wondering why specified response times are of little use when it comes to accurately assessing latency.

    November 2, 2014 at 7:07 pm #33274

    Lance
    Participant

    Someone (google Fudoh’s review of the Sony W6) underlined the fact that the Leo Bodnar tester also works with a target-brightness level, meaning measurement will be different whether the backlight is set rather dim or if it’s maxed out.
    The difference is only of a very few milliseconds though…
    I like the Leo Bodnar tester, but if the person who used it to measure a display’s lag doesn’t describe precisely under what conditions/settings, the results are kind of worthless.

    November 6, 2014 at 12:44 am #33295

    Umbral
    Participant

    For VA / IPS will true 6 bit vs true 8 bit vs true 10 bit impact pixel responsiveness ?
    Or will it only require more CPU / GPU power ?

    November 6, 2014 at 10:24 am #33296

    PCM2
    Keymaster

    It shouldn’t have a noticeable impact really. Modern pixel overdrive solutions usually work just as efficiently regardless of panel bit depth.

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