[Polandum]

Hi

From researching, I am looking at different monitors
and noticed there is two of interest.

Phillips 43″ 4k
-MVA HDR – Philips 436M6VBPAB
-IPS – Philips BDM4350UC

From reading the review and youtube video on your site
The IPS and MVA HDR both have some pros and cons

IPS
Pro
+Large viewing angles
+High color accuracy

Con
-Low contrast ratio
-IPS glow

MVA HDR
Pro
+HDR
+Higher contrast ratio

Con
-less viewing angles than IPS but better than TN
-subpixel issue
-VA glow?

In the review there was many more pros and cons listed
but I not sure how important they are to the overall daily usage.

The cons of both are they are only 60hz.

Purpose of usage
I mainly will used this monitor as a general all purpose monitor
in the follow uses
-web browsing/reading (majority of the usage)
-movie/TV watching
-gaming

I will hardly ever use it for photoshop work.

1) So what is the recommendation of choosing which monitor?
I am also open to any other alternatives.

2) Currently I have 2 x 24″ monitors side by side.

Is it better to get 1 large 43″ monitor or keep using this 2 monitor setup?

Not that I can’t keep all 3 monitors on the same desk, but from what I seen ..
the single 43 inch is quite huge already

so might not be possibly to keep 2 x 24 on the side + 1 x 43 inch in the middle to due to desk size
and the large real resolution of the 43″ might be good enough to replace the 2 monitors.

3) What graphic cards would we need to drive
-1 x 43 inch 4k monitor (with and without the HDR)
-1 x 43 inch 4k monitor (with and without the HDR) + 2 x 24 inch 1080p monitors?

4) Is the HDR MVA better than an IPS without HDR?
Would it better to go wait for an IPS with HDR or some other better monitor that beats both type of monitor?

5) Is HDR MVA worth paying an extra $300 to $400 to $500 more over than a non HDR monitor like this IPS one?

[PCM2]

Hi Polandum and welcome,

What you need to appreciate is that monitors are very subjective and aren’t ‘one size fits all’ even for a given usage pattern. It depends on your individual preferences. But it will be useful to consider the advantages of each model in a more complete and specific way, so you can weigh those up against your own expectations and preferences:


Advantages of the BDM4350UC (IPS-type):

– Superior colour consistency and accuracy. As explored in the respective reviews, the IPS-type panel delivers shades relatively consistently – meaning it appears more or less the same regardless of which point of the screen you’re looking at. With the Momenumum model and indeed any VA model, you get weakening saturation towards the flanks and bottom of screen and readily shifting gamma as you move your head even slightly or observe different positions of the screen. For those reasons I would never advise using IPS-type models for colour-critical work. For your uses it’s far less important and I’d consider other factors above this, generally.

– No ‘black crush’. So detail levels for some dark scenes can be better in the central region of the screen. But note advantages for other model below with respect to contrast and lack of ‘IPS glow’ more than outweigh this in my view.

– Better subpixel structure. There is no ‘static dithering’ on this model. This is explored in detail in the 436M6VBPAB review and I have nothing more to add to that. It won’t bother everybody and depends on viewing distance, but either way the BDM4350UC doesn’t have this issue at all.

– Tighter pixel responsiveness. The IPS-type panel delivers a good overall pixel responsiveness without needing very heavy pixel overdrive. The 436M6VBPAB is very good for a VA model, as per the review, for pixel responsiveness. But you get some overshoot due to the strong pixel overdrive used, whereas on the BDM4350UC there’s no real overshoot to speak of with the optimal ‘Smart Response’ setting.

Advantages of the 436M6VBPAB (VA with HDR):

– Much stronger static contrast, vastly improving the depth of dark shades and aiding the ‘pop’ of brighter shades amongst darker backgrounds. Lack of ‘IPS glow’, and as per review, the ‘VA glow’ is a much more minor issue in comparison. Dark shades are presented with much better atmosphere in games and movies/TV programs.

– Much wider colour gamut. Colours are presented in a significantly more vibrant and saturated way, explored again in the review.

– HDR capability. This monitor has an excellent HDR implementation, which for supported content will build upon the two advantages above by hugely increasing contrast (allowing local dimming of the backlight) and mapping shades to that big colour gamut more accurately.

– AMD FreeSync support. Although the range of operation is very limited, so perhaps not a huge bonus. And of course of no consequence to Nvidia users.

– No ‘frame-skipping bug’. See this section of the BDM4350UC review.

As for your questions, I think the above addresses these as best as can be addressed. As I’ve said, it’s subjective and you need to weigh things up for yourself. If you’re asking for my personal opinion, I feel the 436M6VBPAB is better suited for your uses – as long as you’re not overly sensitive to overshoot or think you’ll find the static dithering annoying. Both issues are explored in detail in the review, so there shouldn’t be any nasty surprises and you should know what to expect – but at the end of the day sensitivity to both issues varies and only you would know if they are issues or not. So if you’re able to get the monitor from somewhere with a good returns policy, I’d give that one a try. The price difference you mention is relative, you get a heck of a lot for your money with this monitor and many who use and and can compare it to more expensive models with HDR are generally very impressed by the value proposition. But it’s your money and you need to decide whether it is worth it to you paying that much extra for.

As this is a specialist monitor forum, I don’t answer questions on GPUs really. When you talk about “driving” a monitor, you simply need a compatible port on the GPU. When you talk about driving a monitor well, you need to consider the games you play and the settings you play at. You’ll need to look at some GPU reviews for benchmarks. At a bare minimum I’d consider something like an Nvidia GTX 1070 (also supports HDR) or an AMD equivilent – I guess a RX Vega 56. You could “get by” with a less powerful GPU, but you’d have to make some significant visual sacrificies in some games. Don’t get me wrong, the resolution can still be attractive even with such sacrifices, but it’s not the best experience. You’d also need to make sure the GPU supports HDR for the 436M6, so look for HDMI 2.0 and DP 1.4 listed in the GPU specifications.

[Polandum]

Thanks for the reply to the question

Yeah I can read the entire detail review on both monitors that you written
and look at the pros and cons you listed at the bottom of the page of each monitor..

But in the end I still don’t think it is easy to make the decision by just reading a review and comparing the pros and cons.

Unless we can physically look at both monitors and actually see those pro and cons in real life
so we can see how significant or insignificant those things actually are to us.

Things like IPS glow, VA glow, black crush, subpixel problems, better contrast ratio, HDR on VA panel etc..
It is not easy to truly appreciate and understand it unless we have physically experience seeing it in real life.

it is not easy to see how good or bad it really is, even if we watch your youtube videos.
cos like you said, that would be subjective based on your video recording camera and our own monitors plus our own eyes/perception.
We might not even have spotted some of those things you mention unless we an expert monitor reviewer.

There are stores that do allow you to return the item within a timeframe
but we would not be able to open the box to test the monitor
since they would then need to charge us a costly restocking fee because they would not be able to resell it as brand new.
Some restocking fees can cost between 10% to 20% etc..

So being able test it in real life is a lot more harder thing to do, unless we have monitor review site etc.
and get sent these monitors to review.

====

Yeah thanks for the expert opinion

At the end of the day that is the only thing I can really rely on
since you are the only that has expert knowledge on the things you mention in the review
as well as having physically used both monitors.

Ideally I would love to get to see the monitors in real life and do a comparison
but as mention above it is not that easy to do.

Things like overshoot, static dithering, IPS glow etc
I still do not know how sensitive I am to it since I would need to see it in person to know.

Is IPS glow really that bad for gaming and movie watching?

===

Do you know what kind of screen tech (e.g. IPS/MVA etc) is used in the LG OLED 4K HDR TVs?
I have seen one in a store and the HDR just looks amazing.

So you think HDR is the future and is even more important than 4K or IPS etc?

I can wait for the HDR monitors to be more common and get cheaper..

Would HDR IPS monitor be any good?
Or a HDR MVA is still better?

So at the end of the day,
Would it be fair to say:

IPS is better suited for photo editing work that requires color accuracy etc
MVA is better suited for movies and games and general all purpose usage?

=====

When I asked about GPU
I know that to get 4k HDR gaming you need a really powerful GPU e.g. 1080 or 1080TI etc.
and then it might still even struggle.

But what I was really asking was if an older GPU e.g. GTX 7xx, 8xx, 9xx can support / changed resolution to 4k HDR resolution or would it struggle with slowdowns on our desktop etc.?

And when we watch movies,
would the older GTX 7xx, 8xx, 9xx be able to play 4k HDR movies/youtube etc..
or would that be more related to the CPU we got.

=====

Another question which I asked above was..

Is a 43 inch monitor too big for comfortable daily desktop usage
and can it replace two 1080p 24 inch monitors etc..

How far would we need to sit to avoid seeing subpixel on the 43 inch screen?

====

Did you do any 4k and 1080p movies tests on these 43 inch 4k screens?
I would like to see how it handles the two resolutions on the screen and how the lettering box or side box would look when playing 1080p movies.

====

Sorry if I asked many questions..
But it will help me in understanding and making my choice.

[PCM2]

Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think you’re not only asking too many questions, you’re also ignoring some of the information at your disposal already. I’m not a fan of repeating myself unnecessarily. A lot of the questions you’ve asked have either been addressed in my answer above or in the reviews, or are purely too subjective to answer in a useful or precise way. That includes questions like “how bad is IPS glow” – I specifically describe how it affects the experience in the review. I’ve also made it quite clear that I’m not here to provide advice on GPUs. But I am going to address some of your questions anyway, as I’m generous, however don’t be insulted if my answers appear blunt. I can appreciate there’s a heck of a lot to take in from the reviews and it’s easy to miss things out, but I would definitely prefer that you took some time out to read them more thoroughly rather than expect me to answer questions that are in some cases already addressed. 🙂

1) ‘IPS glow’ bothers some people a lot. Some people a little. Others don’t mind it. I describe its effects in the BDM4350UC review and have nothing I can really add to that. Just remember that it is less bothersome if the room is quite well lit. Especially with the glossy screen, it becomes quite undistracting in my opinion.

2) OLED is a completely different technology to LCD. So it is independent of any LCD panel type.

3) HDR is a very enjoyable addition to both games and movies that support it. It’s where things are headed and it is something where support is only going to improve over time.

4) IPS HDR models are only ‘good’ if they have a complex backlight array. The best available today are very expensive FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) zones with hundreds of dimming zones. Even then, they aren’t as good as the Philips solution. If you read the HDR section of the review, you’ll notice that this comparison is specifically drawn.

5) As I said earlier, the GPU needs to specifically support HDR. So there’s no use thinking about old GPUs that don’t even have the right ports and therefore don’t support HDR. A GTX 1060 would be an example of a GPU that would comfortably work under HDR even though it doesn’t provide the best performance when gaming.

6) The 43″ experience is specifically covered in both reviews, not sure what you want me to add to that. The distance you need to sit depends on your eyesight and also your own personal preferences. I have better than 20/20 vision, but eronomically speaking find 43″ screens to work nicely from around 70 – 100cm. Viewing distances are specifically mentioned in various points of the 436M6VBPAB review. With this one I’d consider 70cm the minimum distance you should consider, but aiming to be further away (80cm+ if you have space) will work nicely. This isn’t just for ergonomic reasons and due to the size, it’s so that the static dithering blends in better.

7) Movie testing is covered. The Blu-rays tested were Full HD. If you had specific questions about this aspect fire away, but there’s no point in specifically testing ‘4K’ movie content when you test gaming, because the experience on the monitor side is much the same. And any imperfections not highlighted elsewhere would stem from the compressed source material, movie software etc. I’m not sure what letterboxing has to do with anything. Full HD and ‘4K’ UHD resolutions are both 16:9 so if you’re watching Full HD movie content it fills up the screen all the same. The GPU/software upscales the image – unless you’re actually running the monitor with 1:1 pixel mapping at 1920 x 1080. But given how good interpolation is on these models (see relevant section of reviews) I don’t think you’ll need to consider that.

[balint]

Hi PCM2,
just want you to know how much your replies and reviews are appreciated.
For amateurs like me it’s great to see old information rephrased, what I didn’t fully understand the first time becomes clear the second time -:)

[PCM2]

Thanks balint, it’s nice to have my work appreciated. 🙂

[pshome]

Hi PCM,

I came here thanks to your first and detailed review of the Philips 436M6VBPAB, i actually bought one to replace my old Dell 2707! VA to VA switch!
I have some thoughts and questions for your advice. My PC is running latest W10 and 1080Ti firmware.

Overclocking and custom resolution –
I tried creating lower resolution in hope of higher overclock and also reduce the massive 42.5″ height for PC use (neck strain). I tried all the popular resolution and all stuck to 6bpc bit depth, with no other bit-depth options on drop down list! I even tried decrease to 50Hz, no use.
My ideal is to run 3840×1600 for 21:9 that have the height of old 16:10 monitor. Strangely this works and give 8bpc/60hz. 10bpc appears on the drop down list, but whenever i select 10bpc, it still fall to 8bpc. HDR/WCG cant be on with this resolution too! Almost made my day. :/
Do you have the same issue with custom resolution where bpc is lost?
I noticed there is no W10 drivers for this monitor, and device manager reports as generic display. Could this be the issue??

Displayport1.2 with HDCP2.2? –
Its specs is Dp1.2 but i tested with Cyberlink tester, and it says both display and GPU are HDCP2.2 complaint! But i thought HDCP2.2 only works on DP1.3 above? Did Philips put in a DP1.4 but firmware lock to DP1.2? Or they somehow bypass HDCP2.2(i read this possible) or they route the data through the HDMI chipset? I like to know because if the hardware is DP1.4, than they should unlock it!
https://www.cyberlink.com/prog/bd-support/diagnosis.do

HDR/WCG and static dithering –
I noticed when i turned that on, the text got really grainy. Is that the same with you? Does this also happens to the Asus PG27?
HDR/WCG still show 4:4:4 chroma using test pattern, but the text looks to have lost a third of its body. :/
I noticed with HDR/WCG on, the 32 dimming zones are activated, and it looks bad on windows use with the halo on mouse movement. Is this the same with PG27, granted PG27 have 100x more zones!

Static dithering –
Can you put me through to your Philips contact? I like to request for a custom firmware to disable it, and let all pixels be lit evenly! What a waste of full BGR pixels to only lit a few, as Prad.de review have close up photo of it. Pentile RGBW is worse and unfixable, but this, this can be fixed!
I will solely be responsible for any degradation, loss of brightness or extra power draw. The cross hatch cause a loss of sharpness, sadly noticeable even with 100% scale. My Steam icon looks like bunch of dots, certain games with translucency selection, looks dotty.

That said, the HDR brightness looks really good, i dont see any 40-43″ TV coming close.
I would prefer for a 32-35″ version though, lesser height strain and the 32 zones will be more effective!

Thank you for your time!

[PCM2]

Hi pshome and welcome,

– I did not test custom resolutions as I had no reason to, so can’t answer that.

– DisplayPort revisions are more fluid than people realise. There are several features that were introduced as of a given revision (such as HDCP 2.2 for DP 1.3). However; newer DP features can still be added to older DP revisions. Provided the GPU port controller uses a sufficiently high DP revision, even if the monitor port controller doesn’t. The Philips uses DP 1.2 but could well support HDCP 2.2 – it also supports HDR, of course, even though this feature requires a GPU with DP 1.4.

– As per the review, you’re only supposed to activate HDR/WCG when an application specifically needs to use it. The Philips local dimming solution is only designed to work with HDR content, it isn’t for SDR use. Sometimes monitors do have a variable backlight option for SDR content (as with the ASUS), but that’s separate. Most games will activate HDR themselves when they need it, for movies obviously you’d need to enable it via Windows. SDR content will not look correct with this enabled and it isn’t designed to be used for SDR content. The subpixel rendering issues are more obvious at lower luminances, which observing HDR/WCG content can bring (certainly on the desktop). This is nothing to do with reduced chroma, it’s completely separate. So very different to the reduced chroma signal at 144Hz on the PG27UQ.

– I can’t share my Philips contact information. They’re press and management contacts and aren’t paid to communicate with the general public outside of press events (sorry!) The subpixel rendering issue is not something that can simply be fixed on a per-unit basis. They’re aware of the issue as it was raised as a key point in my review and if it is fixable then it will be done so but on a wider scale. Don’t count on it.

[pshome]

Thanks PCM for your replies. I think this forums can be made searchable from google, because i did not know of its existence until i searched really hard for 436M6VBPAB. It is a helpful place.

Can you help ping your Philips guy to know of user feedback on the static dithering issue? It is almost perfect monitor if not for it. I know one should not be hopeful for firmware updates, but Asus did so recently as PC HDR is infancy and core users are the ones using now. At least we can patch this under a PC mode or something, so that the HDR marketing brightness can be retained after.

I have seated further, increase to 150% scale and it did alleviate the grainy text somewhat. It still appears here there on certain backdrop.

I know this has been marketed as a console gamer choice. Another feedback to Philips, they should make smaller version of this, they can sell gun-buster and be widely acclaimed. If they read PC forums across, a lot of users are waiting to upgrade to HDR display even though 120/144hz monitors are also in demand. Some value high refresh rate, as do some value good quality picture. PC have limited options while Consoles have tons of options.

The only upcoming panel, with good size and HDR picture quality potential, is the Asus/Acer AUO 35″ 21:9 200hz/512 local dimming. Not too big, not too small for PC use, but bit expensive with G-sync module. There is a great window of opportunity!

34″ inch/75Hz/4K VESA1000/VA/DP1.4 with same 32 zones
Or
38″ inch 85Hz/3840×1600 VESA100/VA/DP1.4 with same 32 zones.
No static dithering
US$7-999
PC Perfection, affordable until OLED mLED are here!

[PCM2]

We get quite a lot of direct traffic to the forum from Google, it’s easy enough to find but depends on the term you’re using. For this thread, for example, it would need to involve something like “Philips 436M6VBPAB vs. BDM4350UC” or something else more specific on the theme of this thread. If you just searched for one model number, you’d get the respective review quite quickly. It is dependent on location, most of our traffic comes from the US and various secondary markets include the UK, Canada and Australia plus EU. We get very little Asian search traffic, but that’s because Google prioritises Asian-language sites and certain other content.

As I’ve said Philips (and their product manager) are well aware of the issue. They’re also acutely tuned to what users want. Ultimately, it isn’t only up to him/them which panels are made but they will certainly want to scale this sort of thing down to smaller sizes. And get rid of the static dithering, but that will be a future product no doubt.

[pshome]

Hi PCM again, i been thinking, believing the 436M6 EDID is flashed as a HDTV, hence i am not getting custom resolution working proper. Either that or my old DP1.2 cables need to swap with the included one. Will test over the weekends. I wonder if i disable digital audio, it can save some data bandwidth and re-direct to video. Though a single DP cable for 4K video and audio is neat!

Do you think we can get an update on the EDID and Philips to release a DCIP3 icc profile for it? Their download only have srgb icc.

[PCM2]

I’m not sure about that. But the ICC profiles that come with monitors are only meant to reset things to the Windows defaults and make sure any other non-default ICC profile is deactivated. They aren’t specific to your unit or even the monitor model in any particular way.

[pshome]

Just an update to all interested parties. I install the downloaded inf file from Philip download page, and now W10 recognize the monitor instead of generic display. Philips did not provide any clue about it, i had to manually go update drivers and select the file. lol
I also changed to the included full DP cable.

Sadly, nothing change on the custom resolution front. I still cannot use 3840×1600 at 10bpc and HDR/WCG. These options are available in this mode, but not able to be apply/retained. 🙁

I may be looking at custom EDID update, initial research, we can diy through software.

I have also change back to 100% font scaling and brightness at ‘1’(about 95cdm) instead of ‘0’ (93cdm). The cross hatch dithering is more acceptable as long as HDR mode is off. Using cleartype, and choosing the more thicker AA fonts, text looks really good as any, no issue with BGR alignment! (got issue with static dithering still!). 42.5″ at 4K is only 105ppi or so, we are not going to get Apple style of retina text on 5K. Will gladly swap for a 32-35″ version of this!

The black levels is really an improvement from my old VA panel! Really inky compared to many monitors i seen.

Only spotted a ‘bleak’ pixel near the center, otherwise the panel quality is ok for the budget price

[PCM2]

I appreciate the continued feedback. Although I’m not sure what you mean by: ” Brightness at ‘1’(about 95cdm) instead of ‘0’ (93cdm).”

[Alacorn]

I still cannot use 3840×1600 at 10bpc and HDR/WCG.

It’s not available on gaming GeForce cards in desktop mode, only in full-screen DX11 applications that support that aka games like
“Alien: Isolation”.
Only Quadro cards support in desktop mode 10bpc and professional application use.

Nvidia states that on their site.
https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3011/~/10-bit-per-color-support-on-nvidia-geforce-gpus

This is artificial restriction for Windows drivers to segment drivers for gaming and professional use.

[pshome]

Oh i mean the OSD brightness level. The default is 50, your review slider at 0 have about 93cdm IIRC. So i interpolated that slider at 1 will give me about 95cdm. That is bright enough even in day use! Slider at 0 seems to make the dithering super obvious.

[pshome]

It is strange but i can use 10bpc in Windows at 4K resolution and also experienced 10bpc at 1440p.
Why Nvidia block out 3840×1600?

[PCM2]

The brightness response isn’t that linear, but forget the readings – trust your own eyes as you are doing. If you like this set to ‘1’ then go for it. 🙂

Although you can set the signal to 10pbc for some resolutions (the native resolution, naturally) in the Nvidia driver, it doesn’t mean it’s actually going to be used. As noted by Alacorn it is not something that can be used outside of DirectX applications such as games on GeForce GPUs. You should really just select “Use default colour settings”, which curiously allows the appropriate signal to be used for the content even if it isn’t listed and can’t be manually selected. For example 10-bit for HDR. Also note that monitors like this which use dithering often apply a degree of it even if the source material isn’t 10-bit. It is a lot more plastic than people realise and performance isn’t simply dictated by what is listed in the Nvidia Control Panel.

[pshome]

TFTcentral is the only review which mentioned the 6500 default is too cool, and needs to step up to 7500?

I tried and the resulting whites look nicer, however i read, the more natural is to have a yellow-ish white. Is there a visual test, without equipment, to gauge a good color temp?

Any way, i revert back to 6500, and decide to lower the greens to 47 via NVCP. I think it looks better, the checkerboard looks less obvious. This going by the prad.de close-up shot of the sub-pixels, where by the greens is the brightest lit. I didn’t mess with the RGB settings of the monitor since i dont know where their 100 represent.

anyone else with this monitor give a try to lower the greens via your GPU?

[PCM2]

Yet on our sample 6500K was very close to the target. Individual units vary, so you need to assess that on each individual unit – you can’t simply copy somebody else’s colour settings. So if you don’t have a colorimeter and therefore can’t accurately measure white point, your best bet is to simply look at familiar images and try to pick out tints or colour temperature imbalances. There’s no right or wrong answer. The correct colour temperature to target actually depends on ambient lighting, 6500K is just a standard daylight target and works well for most users. But as far as colour accuracy goes, you’d need to calibrate to a white point specific to your lighting conditions. Your eyes will also adjust to a degree, given time, so you don’t always need to get things spot on.

[Author]

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