1440p 240Hz/300Hz options?

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  • #57339
    jasswolf

    Having seen the initial technical reviews of the HP Omen X 27″ monitor, I feel like another manufacturer could do more with the panel, particularly the backlight. Will more models appear in the next few months, or are we stuck waiting for a panel tweak before others order from AUO?

    Also interested in any tidbits regarding incoming VA options. AUO have obviously done an initial release at 27″ FHD that Samsung are using in the 240Hz C27RG5 variant, but it’s barely been reviewed from a technical perspective, and has dropped significantly in price in my country.

    I’ve seen some capture photography from a German review that suggests it has a lot of overdrive and smearing, but if the panel is capable at 200Hz and future versions will come in at 27″ QHD with solid strobing, could that be the way to go? What about future Samsung options, is there any gossip in the lead-up to CES 2020?

    #57344
    PCM2

    Hi jasswolf,

    With it being this close to CES, it’s really a case of “wait and see”. I’m not aware of any recent 240Hz developments that aren’t already known about. I would expect the 240Hz 2560 x 1440 AUO TN panel (M270DTN02.7) to be used by others beyond just HP and Lenovo. But it’s a panel rather than CELL, so the backlight comes as part of the package. A more effective strobe backlight implementation could be part of what other manufacturers produce, though, as that is controlled by external circuits from the panel itself. Word on the grapevine is that AU Optronics are working on 2560 x 1440 AHVA (IPS-type) options with a 240Hz refresh rate, but I don’t expect to see a product using such a panel for several months at least.

    The 240Hz VA panels (used in the C27RG50 etc.) are pretty lacklustre in terms of responsiveness, really. There’s nothing special about them, they use a similar technology to the 144Hz Samsung SVA panels. And even those have issues from suboptimal pixel responses for 144Hz – including a mixture of ‘heavy powdery’ trailing, some with a ‘smeary’ appearance or strong overshoot due to the levels of overdrive required to speed things up sufficiently. Ramping up to 240Hz without any inherent pixel responsiveness advantages is just asking for trouble – the end result being a performance that’s far from convincing or ‘clean’ at 240Hz. You still benefit from the elevated refresh rates (refer to our review of a recent 200Hz VA model) but it doesn’t really make the most of the refresh rate. It isn’t know what if anything Samsung has in store for next year in 240Hz VA flavour and whether there will be higher resolution options. I don’t think they’d be worth getting excited about, though, the VA panel type simply isn’t as well-suited to such high refresh rates as others.

    #57345
    jasswolf

    Word on the grapevine is that AU Optronics are working on 2560 x 1440 AHVA (IPS-type) options with a 240Hz refresh rate, but I don’t expect to see a product using such a panel for several months at least.

    Yup, heard about these, and while the response times look solid on 240Hz IPS, I just don’t find the viewing and colour consistency gains to be worth the price premium. I don’t find the vertical gamma shift to be jarring in productivity, so I’d rather skip over the additional dark scene issues that might arise.

    I mean ideally I’d love to see JOLED bob up with a 1440p or 4k high refresh rate panel (and a suitably BFI mechanism for it), but I’m not holding my breath. Samsung’s QD-OLED push suggests that we’re probably waiting another 12 months for OLED to be remotely affordable, and then there’s still burn-in to contend with despite all the advances that have been made.

    I’ll probably settle on the AUO TN panel, just going to have sit tight until Feb-March in the hope that HP decided to ship here, or someone else appears with a convincing model.

    I don’t think they’d be worth getting excited about, though, the VA panel type simply isn’t as well-suited to such high refresh rates as others.

    Would the upcoming ASUS TUF VA offerings (or others) provide a better experience at 140-180Hz through a decent strobing mode? I feel like if there is some technique to make VA viable with crisper motion, I’d probably leap at that.

    #57347
    PCM2

    That’s understandable. As for the ASUS TUF VA offerings, I’m not convinced they’d provide a solid strobe backlight mode. If you look at the VG27AQ (TFT Central’s review is quite revealing), there is a lot of strobe crosstalk across the range. That’s not a VA model but rather a faster IPS-type model. Perhaps their naked ELMB (rather than ELMB-Sync) implementation would be less prone to this, but I’m not too sure. The good news is that Blur Busters (via Chief Blur Buster Mark Rejhon) has a new certification and tuning program for low crosstalk strobe backlight modes which a few manufactuers are onboard with. ViewSonic are and I believe Acer have expressed an interest as well, I’d expect others to follow suit. The ViewSonic XG270 is the first model to be approved and tuned in this way, I’d like to see a WQHD variant and this and wouldn’t be surprised if one pops up next year at some point.

    #57411
    PCM2

    From TFT Central’s latest AUO panels update, it appears that AUO are working on a 27″ 2560 x 1440 240Hz IPS-type and 1500R curved VA option. It seems their focus for 2020 has shifted away from TN panels.

    #57412
    jasswolf

    Would they bother refreshing the TN range so quickly? Seems like a waste for a backlight array as well.

    The 280Hz IPS panel listed on Taobao is interesting as well. Still curious to see if any 240Hz VA panels bob up with some decent numbers or strobing capabilities, but I’ll probably settle on 240Hz or 300Hz TN depending on price points.

    #57414
    PCM2

    It was more a general comment, not just focusing on the 240Hz (or potentially higher refresh rate) options. They usually have at least one new TN panel of some description in the pipeline, so it was interesting to see they didn’t this time. They’ve had the same 24″ 144Hz TN panel variant since 2011 (M240HW01) which is still used in some new products today. They shifted to a 24.5″ panel (M250HTN01) which is better in many respects, including colour reproduction and consistency. But they royally screwed it up with obvious ‘interlace pattern artifacts’ which many users find too obvious and obtrusive (including me). Their work is far from done perfecting improving their TN panels. I agree that the 2560 x 1440 240Hz TN panel is too new to refresh already, and there’s only so much they could do to improve upon it within the constraints of the panel technology.

    #57643
    jasswolf

    Word of 360Hz monitors now trickling in…

    #57645
    PCM2

    Yes. Nvidia (partnered with Nvidia) are showing off a ROG SWIFT model that’s 24.5″ Full HD 360Hz at CES. Due later this year (at the very earliest), not currently given an official model code and not WQHD.

    Update 15/05/2020: Dell also has the Alienware AW2521H in the works for later this year. It has a Full HD IPS-type panel, essentially a 360Hz version of the AW2521HF by the looks of things.

    Update 23/06/2020: The Acer X25 will be using the 360Hz IPS-type panel as well. Also includes an ambient lighting system (bias lighting style).

    #57646
    jasswolf

    Any idea what kind of technical challenges have been overcome to get such a high overclock? I can’t imagine this is just a well-binned 240Hz panel that overclocks nicely.

    If they’ve done something substantial, then QHD won’t be that far behind.

    #57648
    PCM2

    It will almost certainly be using a new panel with higher native refresh rate rather than a heavily overclocked 240Hz panel. It’s really just an early prototype and could be over a year away from release. A WQHD version may not be hot on the heels of this one, it could be a number of years away. Far too difficult to say at this stage.

    #57746
    jasswolf

    So despite all the noise about HVM on IPS and TN 240Hz options being underway, CES brought no product announcements? Why would they leave that so late if they could theoretically ship a product in 8 weeks time?

    The only thing we saw was Samsung’s G7, which is what… a 1000R SVA panel? It looks ridiculous for 16:9.

    #57747
    jasswolf

    BTW the 360Hz product from ASUS is confirmed to be released later this year, so if it’s a new panel variant, it’s in early sampling.

    #57750
    PCM2

    Take such release targets with a huge dose of salt, more often than not they slip. It is to maintain at least a bit of excitement about a product and make it seem relevant for the year. It could well release later this year, but we’ll see if it actually does.

    I’m not so quick to forget the ASUS PG27UQ, shown off at CES 2017 with a suggested release date of June that year. The PG27UQ was only released a year later, June 2018, and only in fairly limited initial volume and availability. And there have been plenty of other release targets given at CES that turned out to be far too optimistic, and some products which were never released at all in the end. That doesn’t mean it will be the case for the ‘ROG 360Hz’, but I wouldn’t take the release target as anything more than aspirational.

    Also, what is HVM? I’m not familiar with that acronym and assume you didn’t mean Hostile Vehicle Mitigation. 😛

    #57760
    jasswolf

    High-volume manufacturing, so manufacturing ramp for those IPS and TN QHD 240Hz panels. The latter started last year, but the former supposedly started a month or two ago according to TFT Central.

    Manufacturers must be disappointed with response times for the TN if they’re not pumping out product announcements.

    #57762
    PCM2

    They might simply be holding off to release their IPS variants instead of TN because they’re more attractive and easier to sell. A lot of users will go for an IPS variant given the choice (whether or not that’s the right choice for a 240Hz model is debatable, but it’s the easier sell).

    #57766
    jasswolf

    I’m just worried about the price premium, which AUO and LG IPS panels are still maintaining.

    How are the early impressions of the Samsung G7 looking?

    #57768
    PCM2

    I haven’t seen the Samsung G7 in action so couldn’t tell you. But I’m quite sure they will be no more responsive than the older generation 240Hz Samsung SVA panels. I’m expecting an unconvincing 240Hz performance and a pretty ‘meh’ performance even at 144Hz. They’ve got an interesting feature-set and the strong curvature, but for those after a truly responsive monitor I think these will be pretty disappointing.

    #58429
    jasswolf

    AOC AG273QZ

    Starting at around the same MSRP as the HP Omen X 27 (~$650 USD). BFI mode and 0.5ms response time claims (HP only claimed 1ms), so hopefully a speedy panel and some nice motion blur options.

    #58431
    PCM2

    As per the news article; don’t look too much into specified response times. A 0.5ms MPRT response time gives no indication about strobe crosstalk levels or any other useful indication of real-world performance, really. It’s also worth pointing out for most of our readers; there’s no confirmation of a US release at this stage. It was unveiled at a press event (actually 2 press events) in the UK this month, but only as an AOC Europe product thus far. The AG273QX wasn’t released in the US so the AG273QZ mightn’t be either.

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